nerys
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New Jersey
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Message Posted: Aug 24, 2011 3:42:26 PM
/Forum_MSG.aspx?master=1&category=1356&topic=456356&page_no=1&FAV=N
there is what proof I have.
its pretty easy to test if you have a high efficiency car (IE small 10 gallon tank)
get a big water jug (more than 5 gallons is ideal think water jug from a water cooler you know the big blue ones?)
it won't last long (you can use it maybe 3 or 4 times before the ethanol destroys it but its enough to do an a b a test.
run your car in the MIDDLE of the season (IE not when we "change the fuel" for winter and back again)
run through a few tanks to get a baseline mpg.
NOW pour 5 gallons of gasoline into the water jug. now add 1/2 to 1 gallon of WATER (yes I said water just plain tap water)
mix it up REALLY REALLY GOOD. let it sit 30 minutes MIX IT UP really good again. let it sill till the Gasoline on top is PURE CLEAR in color.
now pour off the gasoline (DO NOT get any of the clear stuff on the bottom)
repeat till you have 2 full 5 gallon cans. if you do not have electronic fuel usage instrumentation measure the fuel you put in. use MILK jugs to fill your tank.
each one is 1 gallon. when you get to a jug where you can not use the whole jug POUR the rest into measuring cups (and back into another jug) so you know how much is "left" in this gallon. invert it.
that plus your full gallons is to the 1/4 cup exactly how much gas you just put in the car.
DO your math to figure out your last "e10" mpg reading.
now drive.
do this at least twice prefer 3 times.
record your numbers.
now the 4th time go back to E10 (make sure you FILL it all the way like you did when you did it by hand)
on your 5th tank you will now have 2 tanks e10 followed by 3 tanks (or 2 if you only did 2) E0 followed by 2 tanks E10 again.
there you go. See what the numbers say.
if you can GET E0 in your area you can avoid all the washing.
just make sure its E0 I had a station lie to me once.
testing is VERY easy. you need something clear and skinny to hold fluid think test tube or "cigar case" the kind with the little lid?
fill it 25 the way with WATER. use a sharpie and mark a line.
now when you get gas add gas to "fill" your test tube.
shake it up.
let it settle (60 seconds) you will see the water and the gas separate. if the LINE marking the division between then is where you marked with the sharpie congradulations you found E0.
if the line moves UP that means their is ALCOHOL present. you just forced "phase separation" so the alcohol left the gas and joined with the water.
graduate this and you can actually tell HOW MUCH ethanol is in the gas (they sell little kits on ebay)
in the early days I bought WAWA gas only because it measured at 6% ethanol while the NO NAME gas stations got as high as 13% ethanol. ie REALLY bad fuel economy.
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sluggopyle
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North Carolina
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 3:44:39 PM
(edit inoperative)
So it's not a matter of "agreement". It's refuting/clarifying a claim that is demonstrably false.
[Edited by: sluggopyle at 8/7/2011 4:45:39 PM EST]
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kst8er
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St. Louis
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 3:44:18 PM
ummm
yes
try google...
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sluggopyle
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North Carolina
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 3:33:12 PM
The statement is right ...so long as the operative word is "should" -- which is what I said in the first place.
"Should" can be taken two ways, hence the clarification. Just so we understand, this is the way ALL (once again, that's *all*) cars made in the U.S. in the last 20+ years "should" behave -- sadly it is not the way they DO behave. If it were as simple as that, all these threads and the entire forum it resides in would not exist. Nor would the local discussion threads on where to find e-free gas, nor would sites like pure-gas.org.
(not sure why he limited to cars "made in the U.S.")
[Edited by: sluggopyle at 8/7/2011 4:40:36 PM EST]
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krzysiek_ck
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 3:28:32 PM
I read it just fine and chemist74 is right. Just because you do not agree does not change that a bit.
There are millions of cars that indeed do not have any issues with E10.
[Edited by: krzysiek_ck at 8/7/2011 4:37:07 PM EST]
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sluggopyle
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North Carolina
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 2:43:10 PM
...Do you or do you not see the word "ALL" leading off that sentence?
Once again, my car is not "broken", nor are those of all those other drivers who report the same thing (or worse), just because they don't fit your preconceptions. THOSE are what's 'broken'.
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krzysiek_ck
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 2:14:47 PM
"The operative word is "should". Would that it were true, but it isn't."
Your Saturn plus few hundred other broken cars do not make it a standard. There are millions of cars that indeed do not have any issues with E10.
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sluggopyle
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North Carolina
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 1:45:00 PM
=> All cars made in the U.S. in the last 20+ years should have no problem with E10 <=
The operative word is "should". Would that it were true, but it isn't.
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chemist74
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Cleveland
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Message Posted: Aug 7, 2011 1:36:12 PM
All cars made in the U.S. in the last 20+ years should have no problem with E10. For most cars, the MPG obtained with ethanol containing fuel is lower than normal gasoline and the drop in MPG increases as the level of ethanol increases but the loss would be significantly lower than the percentage of ethanol. Many car makers have publically stated how much the MPG drops when using ethanol containing fuel.
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Gmsclecarparts
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Oklahoma City
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2011 10:42:19 PM
"i grew up in the midwest nebraska and ethenol doesnt hurt cars.
it takes a few tanks for the car to get used to it." That's amusing. I too grew up in the Heartland & witnessed first hand (with my own hands) what gasohol does to fuel line connections & vac lines. In the early 80's swollen vac harnesses leaking vacuum was a continual problem with my vehicle running ethanol laced fuel. At the time, slight increase in octane of the gasohol was offset by the lower power output, this was backed up with time slips. Today, customers along with myself have a serious problem using original AC fuel pumps on higher end restorations. The rubber diaphragms in the new old stock pumps doesn't hold up to long term E10 exposure.
Last, my family's late model Toyota 4Runner gets consistently 8-9% less mileage on E10 junk gas. That 8-9% documented less mileage has never paid for the close to 2-3% more I consistently pay for 100% PURE GASOLINE.
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SilverStreaker
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2011 6:02:35 PM
cheapgas123, Welcome to Gasbuddy's! I have found the same to be true.
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cheapgas123
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Oregon
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2011 5:52:55 PM
i grew up in the midwest nebraska and ethenol doesnt hurt cars.
it takes a few tanks for the car to get used to it.
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SilverStreaker
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Jul 29, 2011 5:09:36 PM
You can count on Shockjock to demand that you provide proof of statements that you did not make, while avoiding providing proof of his own statements. Just more of his hypocrisy.
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SilverStreaker
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Jul 27, 2011 1:58:46 PM
Shockjock1961 says "The ethanol and corn lobby made sure they bribed enough politicians"
Let's see some proof for your claim.
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jdhelm
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Iowa
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Message Posted: Jul 15, 2011 9:54:19 AM
ethanol has not hurt my mileage nor any of our vehicles since 1973, and i get 28.83 mpg on an old dodge van, which if i recall, is not to shabby (for vans or cars)
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Shockjock1961
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Jul 15, 2011 9:44:54 AM
"It costs more, it's less at the pump but our government heavily subsidizes ethanol from corn. If they stopped, the Ethanol plants would mostly close"
Not necessarily. The ethanol and corn lobby made sure they bribed enough politicians to provide an Ace up their sleeve to play in emergencies. That Ace is the minimum usage mandate. Even if the subsidies go away the government will force you to use ethanol, so demand will not necessarily lessen...
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stickyvalves
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Iowa
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Message Posted: Jul 15, 2011 8:58:07 AM
Lots of opinions.
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IROCROB
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Harrisburg
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Message Posted: Jul 15, 2011 8:23:40 AM
less gas mileage, burns a little cleaner, cleans out your parts and very slight increase in hp
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Tundralimited2009
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Dallas
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Message Posted: Jul 15, 2011 7:21:50 AM
Interesting
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cyclej
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Dallas
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Message Posted: Jul 8, 2011 9:34:25 PM
yes
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BRTgr88
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Atlanta
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Message Posted: Jul 8, 2011 9:00:01 PM
It costs more, it's less at the pump but our government heavily subsidizes ethanol from corn. If they stopped, the Ethanol plants would mostly close. It also has less BTUs and therefore reduces your gas mileage.
/E85-Gas-Mileage-Consumption.html
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Tundralimited2009
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Dallas
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Message Posted: Jul 8, 2011 4:10:33 PM
15% no way
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AquariuZ
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Oklahoma
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Message Posted: Jul 7, 2011 10:59:03 AM
It depends on your car. If you drive a diesel vehicle it is catastrophic. If you pump E85 into a vehicle not designed for E85, you have a huge problem.
But generally a lot of newer vehicles are built to be "Flex Fuel". Which means they can use ethanol at most concentrations with no adverse effects.
Second consideration is the concentration of ethanol in the fuel. You can get fuel with 0 ethanol. This is 100% gas. Which is harder and harder to get. Impossible in some areas and probably soon to be impossible everywhere. Refiners are being required to add ethanol so there is not much the people who sell gas to you can do about it.
Then there is E10, which is what most retailers are selling at the pumps now. That means approximately 10% of the fuel you buy at the pump is going to be 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline. In all honesty you won't see a huge difference between E10 and regular gas. You may see a small drop in your mpg. But even that is debatable.
Now the government is pushing to raise the percent of ethanol in fuel to 15%. (Or E15) What effect this may have will be seen in the future.
And the last blend is E85. 85% of the fuel is ethanol. You do NOT want to put this into an older vehicle. FLex fueled vehicles are fine with this, my car and probably your car would choke and die.
The problems with ethanol. Lower mpg for your car. And ethanol reacts poorly with water. Water will mess you up. Older cars weren't built with ethanol in mind, so fuel filters may clog quicker from ethanol, corrosion may occur faster in your car, rubber gaskets or any other elements of your car that come into contact with the fuel may not react well with ethanol. Those are all worst case scenarios, most likely they won't occur. Some states, like Missouri have been adding ethanol to their fuel at all locations for a couple of years. They should be the places where we hear about all the drawbacks of ethanol first.
Of course adding ethanol to gas lowers your prices at the pump. But does it even out when considered with your loss in mpg? I don't know.
The way the truckers add ethanol to their fuel is interesting too. It's called "Splash" blending. They fill their trucks up to 90%, drive to the ethanol place, and then just fill the rest of the way up with ethanol. They expect the drive to deliver it, to blend the fuels. So, who's to say you're getting exactly 10% ethanol in your vehicle each time you fill up at a location that sells E10?
[Edited by: AquariuZ at 7/7/2011 12:00:22 PM EST]
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AquariuZ
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Oklahoma
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Message Posted: Jul 7, 2011 10:28:03 AM
It depends on your car. If you drive a diesel vehicle it is catastrophic. If you pump E85 into a vehicle not designed for E85, you have a huge problem.
But generally a lot of newer vehicles are built to be "Flex Fuel". Which means they can use ethanol at most concentrations with no adverse effects.
Second consideration is the concentration of ethanol in the fuel. You can get fuel with 0 ethanol. This is 100% gas. Which is harder and harder to get. Impossible in some areas and probably soon to be impossible everywhere. Refiners are being required to add ethanol so there is not much the people who sell gas to you can do about it.
Then there is E10, which is what most retailers are selling at the pumps now. That means approximately 10% of the fuel you buy at the pump is going to be 10% ethanol and 90% gasoline. In all honesty you won't see a huge difference between E10 and regular gas. You may see a small drop in your mpg. But even that is debatable.
Now the government is pushing to raise the percent of ethanol in fuel to 15%. (Or E15) What effect this may have will be seen in the future.
And the last blend is E85. 85% of the fuel is ethanol. You do NOT want to put this into an older vehicle. FLex fueled vehicles are fine with this, my car and probably your car would choke and die.
The problems with ethanol. Lower mpg for your car. And ethanol reacts poorly with water. Water will mess you up. Older cars weren't built with ethanol in mind, so fuel filters may clog quicker from ethanol, corrosion may occur faster in your car, rubber gaskets or any other elements of your car that come into contact with the fuel may not react well with ethanol. Those are all worst case scenarios, most likely they won't occur. Some states, like Missouri have been adding ethanol to their fuel at all locations for a couple of years. They should be the places where we hear about all the drawbacks of ethanol first.
Of course adding ethanol to gas lowers your prices at the pump. But does it even out when considered with your loss in mpg? I don't know.
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SilverStreaker
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Jul 4, 2011 11:48:11 AM
Tucker1961 says "They dump Ethanol in the gas here during winter. My mileage sucks. When they quit in summer my mileage improves"
Regular gas in Minnesota is 10% ethanol year round. Milage in the winter is much worse than the summer.
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deputydog082
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Detroit
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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2011 6:23:57 PM
wrasmu, here's a site that gives some scientific values to the energy contained (or not contained) in ethanol.http://www.cleanairtrust.org/E85-Gas-Mileage-Consumption.html
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SmartGA
Rookie Author
Georgia
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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2011 4:44:37 PM
Folks, I just bought a sweet yard trimmer and don't want to screw it up by using Ethanol fuel. Does anyone know of a station in Cobb County (west Cobb) that doesn't sell this crap....
Sincere thanks.....
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ajkayakers
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Akron
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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2011 2:19:43 PM
it's hard on cars but harder on small engines like lawnmowers. Mileage is slightly less also.
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aamir2647
Rookie Author
Illinois
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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2011 11:36:12 AM
less mpg
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valby
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Massachusetts
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Message Posted: Jul 3, 2011 11:10:21 AM
less MPG.
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Tucker1961
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Seattle
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2011 8:51:47 PM
They dump Ethanol in the gas here during winter. My mileage sucks. When they quit in summer my mileage improves
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furball64801
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Missouri
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2011 11:01:39 AM
Bustermoves I have been running at least a 60% mix of ethanol in two vehicles for over 5 yrs. My loss milage is minimal and I get great and I do mean great performance. I fill on E-85 mix anytime I can and it shows a non ffv can run a high mix. I have never had my car in the shop for any repairs and have never had to change out fuel filters because I started as soon as I got the cars.
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zdcatc12
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Jacksonville
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Message Posted: Jul 2, 2011 7:56:27 AM
Great for your car, but bad for your mileage.
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Alexi7
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Ohio
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Message Posted: Jul 1, 2011 6:39:38 AM
My 2009 Pontiac G6 with the 3.5L V-6 loses about 5-6 mpg going from gasoline to E85. I think once automakers design an engine to take advantage of E85's high octane rating(105), like the turbo 1.4L engine in the Chevy Cruze, I think we'll comparable mpg ratings.
That said, I'm not all that thrilled with GM's OHV 3.5L V-6. Middling fuel economy compared to other V-6s in that size range. I rented a 2011 Camaro with the 3.6L, 24-valve V-6 and got slightly better mpg and a boatload more power. In 4th. gear the G6 has about zero acceleration. My heavier and shorter-geared Acura TL(1999) gets better mpg and is much quicker.
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Kokomose
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Indiana
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Message Posted: Jun 29, 2011 7:20:15 AM
The reality of your question does not come from other drivers. It will depend on you. Try a tank full or two to check your mileage and actual overall cost versus regular unleaded. Only you can tell what your results will be. Just try it. If it is not better, then switch back.
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Kokomose
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Indiana
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2011 2:15:34 PM
My driving is not consistent enough to get comparable mileages, but I can tell that I get lower mileage with E85. I have used a 20% savings guideline. I feel that makes it close.
I was in a car repair shop one time and they stated that a regular fuel filter was about $15 or so, but one for an E85 vehicle was closer to $200. I do not recall the exact numbers, but it was a huge difference in replacement cost for this part. I do not recall anyone telling me about that when I bought my car.
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GM1954
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2011 1:20:36 PM
"I just took a small trip in my car that usually got 37-38 mpg on the road and now it is down to about 31 mpg."
The one trip test; That's scientific.
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El_Zorro
Sophomore Author
Illinois
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2011 10:23:19 AM
E85 is only .30 cheaper than regular gas as of this morning by me(3.44 vs 3.74). I saw a 25% decrease in fuel economy running it, so the cost difference was no where near offsetting the loss of mpg.
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MertieMan
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Lexington
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2011 8:36:57 AM
It most certainly does hurt the milage on your car. I just took a small trip in my car that usually got 37-38 mpg on the road and now it is down to about 31 mpg. It will decrease your milage on average by 1-4 mpg. Ethanol is costing us all money and saving the oil industry billions.
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GM1954
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Illinois
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2011 6:31:56 AM
"go look at new flex fuel cars .typically E85 gets half the millage of regular gas.and E85,costs almost as much as regular gas.so how is this better. "
I've driven over 100,000 miles with E85 and the difference in fuel economy is negligible.
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goldseeker
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West Virginia
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2011 6:23:46 AM
"go look at new flex fuel cars .typically e85 gets half the millage of regular gas.and e85,costs almost as much as regular gas.so how is this better. "
BUSTERMOVES, you are wrong! Most fall into the 10-15% range. Some more, some less, but none at 50%.
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bustermoves
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Fort Worth
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Message Posted: Jun 27, 2011 5:04:40 AM
go look at new flex fuel cars .typically e85 gets half the millage of regular gas.and e85,costs almost as much as regular gas.so how is this better.
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fedtx
Sophomore Author
Texas
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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2011 6:42:47 AM
I never thought it caused my miles per gal to decrease.How do I know if ethanol is added. are stations suppose to post that information?I really would like the truth.
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joeboxerTN
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Tennessee
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Message Posted: Jun 26, 2011 1:13:25 AM
thanks SilverStreaker, I guess I take your word for it, you run two differnece vehicle with ethanol, I see no reason for me to change. thanks
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SilverStreaker
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Twin Cities
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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2011 7:34:22 PM
joeboxerTN, I have run over 35% ethanol in my Honda CRV and over 65% ethanol in my Ford Windstar and have seen no significant change in milage. Neither car is a flex fuel vehicle or was modified.
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joeboxerTN
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Tennessee
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Message Posted: Jun 25, 2011 8:55:00 AM
"I found this comment on a post elsewhere in this section, but feel it needs to be repeated here ...."Ethanol burns at nearly twice the rate of leaded race fuel. If you burn 10 gallons of race fuel you will burn 20 gallons of ethanol/methanol."
I interpret that to say ... "if you get 30mpg with gas, you'll get 15mpg with ethanol".
_
Anybody ever run a road test themselve to verifly this, be interesting to find out, I would do it but I fill up about once a month.
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Gmsclecarparts
All-Star Author
Oklahoma City
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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2011 10:40:53 PM
"I found this comment on a post elsewhere in this section, but feel it needs to be repeated here ...."Ethanol burns at nearly twice the rate of leaded race fuel. If you burn 10 gallons of race fuel you will burn 20 gallons of ethanol/methanol."
I interpret that to say ... "if you get 30mpg with gas, you'll get 15mpg with ethanol".
Cant make that generalization. Many years ago, my dirt track friends ran methanol at a little over 2 to 1 ratio. Their carbs & fuel supply systems were specially suited to the corrosive methanol. Have many contacts running E85 as an alternative to race gas today. Probably the most cost effective use for E85, I have no use for E85 as a daily driver fuel.
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Gmsclecarparts
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Oklahoma City
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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2011 10:31:48 PM
personal results have confirmed between 8% & 9% less mileage with E10 junk gas. For the last 6 months e10 would have to be 30 to 35 cents cheaper a gallon to break even on the distance I can drive on pure gasoline
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OceanArcher
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Mississippi
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Message Posted: Jun 24, 2011 10:20:20 PM
I found this comment on a post elsewhere in this section, but feel it needs to be repeated here ...."Ethanol burns at nearly twice the rate of leaded race fuel. If you burn 10 gallons of race fuel you will burn 20 gallons of ethanol/methanol."
I interpret that to say ... "if you get 30mpg with gas, you'll get 15mpg with ethanol".
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goldseeker
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West Virginia
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Message Posted: Jun 23, 2011 5:58:47 AM
So anyone saying gasoline has to be in the ethanol for the good of the engine is either trying to sell something, or is completely confused.
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